AMNA NAWAZ: Gun violence continues to impact# communities across the country on a daily basis,## often in ways that don't make the news, but# create lifelong consequences for victims,## their families, even entire neighborhoods.

The normalization of shootings,# fueled in part by easy access to guns,## has created a persistent public health crisis.

William Brangham tells us more.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Think of the most# recent shootings that made national news,## the foiled attack on President Trump this# weekend, for sure, but what about the horrible## murder of eight children two Sundays ago in# Louisiana?

That received far less attention.

Or what about the mass shooting# in Indiana three days ago,## where nine people were shot?

According to the Gun# Violence Archive, while shootings are going down,## in just the last 72 hours, there have# been over 175 different shootings in## this country where someone was shot or# killed.

That is just three days' worth.

For more on how we reckon with this ongoing# toll, we are joined again by Dr.

Emmy Betz.## She's an E.R.

doctor and associate dean for# centers and institutes at the University of## Colorado Anschutz School of Medicine and director# of the Firearm Injury Prevention Initiative.

Dr.

Betz, so nice to see you again.

Do you think we have just gotten desensitized# to this ongoing toll of gun violence?

DR.

EMMY BETZ, Director, Firearm Injury# Prevention Initiative: I think, to some## extent we have, I think especially#.. we're all dealing with and the# chaotic world we're living in.

But I think it's really important that# we not settle for this as a new normal.## It doesn't have to be this way,# and I think it's important that## we keep having these conversations,# so that we can find a better future.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: And I know you think# it's important to remind people that,## as I mentioned, shootings, while# still horrendous, are going down.

I think it's important we talk about that# gun violence as a problem is big and complex,## and it's not just mass shootings.# We know the daily toll of violence,## the majority of gun deaths in this country are# from suicide.

That's been a persistent problem,## and we're not seeing improvement,# despite a lot of promising work.

But where we are seeing improvement# is in homicides.

So, gun murders## are at historic lows in terms of# decreases in rates and numbers,## for the past three years, and that's# really something to celebrate.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Do you have a sense,## do other researchers have a sense# as to wh.. DR.

EMMY BETZ: So there's not a single# answer, and I think this is one of the## things that's both complicated about these# discussions, but also should bring us hope.

There's not going to be one perfect fix# to this problem.

There's not one law,## there's not one policing approach or one# intervention we need to put in place.

It## takes a lot of pieces working together.# So we have seen a decrease in murder rates## because of things like wraparound and# comprehensive intervention programs to## get at those upstream risk factors related to# socioeconomic stress, job stress, et cetera.

We're seeing differences in policing approaches.# All of these things that can work together,## even things like neighborhood design,# better lighting, better green spaces, can## have an impact in helping reduce violence in the# community, and we see that murder rate go down.

We are, though, still having persistent# problems related to violence within homes.## So I mentioned suicide, but we also really# need to be talking about domestic violence,## and domestic violence and suicide are often# closely linked, as we have seen in recent cases.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: As you mentioned, we often,## in the media, focus on big shootings, the# ones with the really grim death tolls.

But that often overlooks the much larger# number of people who survive shootings,## either shootings of themselves or of# their loved ones, and who then often## have to reckon with that trauma for# years, maybe the rest of their lives.

DR.

EMMY BETZ: No, it's very true.

We# talk a lot about the deaths, because,## in some ways, those are easier to# count.

But we do need to recognize## the bigger toll that it's having on all# of us as survivors and as a society where## we see people changing behavior because# of fear of mass shootings and so forth.

And we need to recognize, at the individual# level, people can have complex and differing## responses after trauma.

Somebody might seem fine# right away and then have symptoms develop later.

And it's important to know, if you# have been through any kind of trauma,## if you have been in a mass shooting situation,# or if you have lost a loved one to violence,## that there are effective and evidence-based# treatments out there, and there's help available.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Do you think that, in part, we# don't talk about suicides and domestic violence## in their relation to gun violence because, in# some ways, those are considered taboo topics,## things that are just for, that's someone's# internal problem, that's not a national problem?

DR.

EMMY BETZ: I think so.# And I think it's something,## we need to continue to fight against that stigma.

I think, during the COVID pandemic, we saw# a lot of increased awareness about how sort## of the roller coaster of life brings ups and# downs for all of us.

And when we think about## suicide and firearm suicide, in particular, we# know it's that when someone's in a bad moment.

So maybe it's mental illness, but maybe it's# also losing a job, getting divorced, kind of## having all of those bad things in life hit you at# once.

If a lethal method like a gun is available,## the person is much less likely to survive.# So it's not that the gun causes the suicide,## but it's that, in that moment, it's less safe for# someone if they're in an environment with a gun.

It's very much like a designated driver at the# bar who helps a friend get home while they're## impaired.

In the same way, we need to be thinking# about how do we reduce access to firearms for## people going through difficult times who might# be at suicide risk, elevated risk of suicide,## but who might also -- maybe they're dealing# with anger issues and going through bad divorce## and might be at risk of hurting their# partner or their family, for example?

So that's where, again, it's not# that the gun is causing the problem,## but it's a key factor that# leads to fatal outcomes.

WILLIAM BRANGHAM: Dr.

Emmy Betz at the University# of Colorado Anschutz School of Medicine,## always great to hear from you.

Thank you so much.

DR.

EMMY BETZ: Thank you so much.